When you’re working with clients, the goal is to make great money doing great work for great clients. That’s totally doable, if you take the right steps.
And when we explore landing higher paying clients, finding your ideal client, value billing and tiered pricing, one crucial element keeps surfacing — the power of specialization to deliver the business and lifestyle you’re after.
It’s a simple thing to understand, but people still struggle with finding the right niche for themselves. So today we’re chatting with web agency owner Sara Dunn about her own journey and process. She went from generalist to specialist herself, and I think you’ll find our discussion useful for finding your perfect niche.
The Show Notes
Transcript
Specialize to Thrive, with Sara Dunn
Sara Dunn: I’m Sara Dunn and I’m on a journey to specialize my web agency and work with the clients I really want. I am totally unemployable.
Voiceover: Welcome to Unemployable. The show for people who can get a job, they’re just not inclined to take one — and that’s putting it gently. In addition to this podcast, thousands of freelancers and entrepreneurs get actionable advice and other valuable resources from the weekly Unemployable email newsletter. Join us by registering for our Free Profit Pillars Course, or choose to sign up for the newsletter only at no charge. Simply head over to Unemployable.com, and take your business and lifestyle to the next level. That’s Unemployable.com.
Brian Clark: When you’re working with clients, the goal is to make great money doing great work for great clients. That’s totally doable, if you take the right steps.
And when we explore landing higher paying clients, finding your ideal client, value billing and tiered pricing, one crucial element keeps surfacing — the power of specialization to deliver the business and lifestyle you’re after.
It’s a simple thing to understand, but people still struggle with finding the right niche for themselves. So today we’re chatting with web agency owner Sara Dunn about her own journey and process. She went from generalist to specialist herself, and I think you’ll find our discussion useful for finding your perfect niche.
I am Brian Clark and this is Unemployable, providing advice and resources for freelancers, consultants and entrepreneurs. Thanks for tuning in.
This episode of Unemployable is brought to you by the all new FreshBooks, easy accounting software for creative professionals like you. You’ve simply got to try it for yourself and you can do it with this special, unrestricted 30-day free trial. Just visit Freshbooks.com/unemployable. That’s Freshbooks.com/unemployable. And don’t forget to enter “Unemployable in the “How Did You Hear About Us? section to claim your free 30-day trial.
Sara, how are you?
Sara Dunn: I’m doing great. How are you today, Brian?
Brian Clark: I’m not bad. It’s always crazy around here, which I’ve alluded to before we got on the air. But not too bad. I can’t complain. Let me ask, what’s the weather like where you’re at?
Sara Dunn: Well, here in southwest Michigan, I am staring out the window to about six inches of snow. As far as January and February go, it has not been too bad around here.
Brian Clark: Yeah, Colorado has just been, it’s a mixed blessing, because it’s been a very mild winter. It’s 41 and sunny outside right now. I’m kind of eyeing the hiking trails for after we get done. But we really need more snow or it’s going to be a rough summer with fires and whatnot in the mountains. It’s like you appreciate the good weather and yet you’re like, “You can go ahead and mess it up a little bit. We need that snow.
Sara Dunn: Yes, you need it to be a little bit normal to not get off track.
Brian Clark: Exactly.
How Did You Start Your Journey as a Business Owner?
Brian Clark: Okay, you have a fascinating story. Now, we got to meet in Nashville at the big WordCamp event late last year. That was the first time I had heard about the infamous Sara Dunn video apparently that Brian Gardner told me about. It was really cool. It was obviously an inflection point in your business, and I think it’s one that provides an incredibly valuable lesson. Regardless of how many times we hear about needing to do this thing, it’s difficult for people and people struggle with it.
But before we get there, let’s talk about how you went out on your own in general. How did you start your journey as a business owner really?
Sara Dunn: Yeah. So, I’ve actually never held a job where I had to ask someone else for a vacation day.
Brian Clark: Bless you. That’s awesome.
Sara Dunn: I’m very appreciative of that. I actually went to college for international business, thinking that I was going to be super corporate and get a job at maybe a big Fortune 500 and something. I didn’t know what that might be, but I had an internship in college at a Fortune 500 company’s web team. And I found out I really was not a good fit for climbing the ladder and trying to get recognized and waiting on someone else to give me a promotion. That whole idea just really didn’t resonate with me. I wasn’t excited about it, and I really wanted the opportunity to create my own destiny, and work hard and hopefully see the rewards of that rather than waiting for someone else to notice.
After college I had an international business degree and a minor in marketing, and I said, “I think I know everything and I am going to start importing wine. It was a very interesting three-year journey and I absolutely did not know anything about the industry. As much fun as it was and how interesting it was, it was really my real world MBA. I learned so much about business, but just wasn’t passionate about the industry. About three years in, I said, “I need to find something else to do with my life. And I really didn’t know what that was.
But one of the most fun things that I did in my first business was actually creating the website for it. So, as I was trying to figure out what to do with my life, I started making websites for people as a hobby on the side. I was absolutely blown away that they would pay me $300 to make them a website. I couldn’t even believe it. So, I quickly realized and I got busy and I said, “Maybe this is the business that I was meant to have, and maybe this is the direction that I need to go. That was about six years ago now.
I’ve been in business making websites of different fashions for about five years and operating as just a generalist agency, taking on any type of work and a lot of it being local. It was about two years ago that I decided I wanted to be a lot more intentional and figure out who I really wanted to be working with rather than just taking any type of work that was coming my way.
Brian Clark: Yeah, that’s interesting about the wine thing. The import-export business is tough, and that was your first stab at it. That is pretty awesome.
Sara Dunn: Yeah. I mean, it was crazy. I learned so much. I learned I absolutely never again want to work with a perishable product. I don’t want to work with a highly regulated product. So, it definitely helped me realize what I don’t want to do.
Brian Clark: Sometimes that’s necessary, and all it took was an internship for you to go, “I don’t think I’m going to work for someone else. It’s funny, some people figure it out right away. I kind of think I did, but I stuck it out for four years for just purely financial reasons. I was in debt, and I also didn’t know what I wanted to do. So, it was one of those things. But yeah, that is cool right from the beginning.
How Did You Know Something Needed to Change?
Brian Clark: Okay. So, you start building websites for people. You kind of just fell into it. That’s a common story. You’re doing it for everyone that comes along basically and to a certain degree, the variety and diversity of projects, it’s kind of exciting. And yet most people I know get worn down by that in one way or another. Explain where you were at when you felt like something needed to change.
Sara Dunn: Yes, I think that’s so true. I think for a while my target client was anyone with a checkbook, who could pay me for a website. It took about three years for me to realize, “You know what? There are certain projects that I really do like more than others. Hey, I think that we’re going to pare back and stop offering social media management and all sorts of ancillary services I had kind of thrown in there.
The paring back started in about year three, but it was probably two years ago that I really started saying, “I’m feeling very, very much passive in this business. I’m not actively pursuing a certain type of client. I’m really just putting myself out there, working my networks and hoping that people will bring work to me. And I’m feeling like I’m in a place where I have to say yes to most of that just to keep the business running.
There was a certain point, about a year ago now, where I lost a project that I really wanted, that I knew we could do a great job at to an agency that was specialized. The prospect came back to me and they said, “Hey, we liked your proposal, but this other company has worked with several other companies like ours, so we’re going to go with them instead. And I was just like, “Oh my gosh, I feel like this is something that’s going to keep happening as I raise prices and try to become a more specialized product offering. I think that I’m going to continue to run into this issue if I can’t say, ‘This is our place in the market, and this is the type of client we do great work for, and here are some specific examples.’
Brian Clark: It’s so powerful. I preach on this all the time. The more specific your messaging resonates with a particular type of person from company what-have-you, you’re going to win the business. A generalist just won’t get it done. And it’s not just the specificity of the messaging, it is that demonstrated industry or niche expertise. You can hold a conversation with someone who was deciding whether to hire you at a level that a generalist just can’t. This is just basic 101 psychology in the way that people select, and yet people struggle with it.
How Did You Determine and Find Your Ideal Client?
Brian Clark: So, I want to ask you this, because late last year we had an episode about finding your ideal client and it really resonated with people. I think it was a form of a wakeup call except that it doesn’t necessarily occur to you often. You have to work for a while and figure it out or you have to have an intentional sit down process where you figure it out. Did you do that?
Sara Dunn: Oh my gosh, that is exactly what I tried to do for probably over a year. It’s funny, because I’ve heard so many people say, “Oh, my niche just happened to me. I started working with a few clients in the same industry and kind of decided we would keep doing that. Nothing like that ever happened in my business. There was such a variety of past clients that we worked with, there really weren’t a lot of themes that tied them together.
But it was about a year ago now that I said, “I really need to figure this out and the answer isn’t just becoming apparent to me. I need to make some focused effort. That’s actually about when I created my very first video. I was at a maximum frustration level with feeling plain vanilla in my business. Every time I wrote a blog post, I knew no one would read it, because it was so general and boring. And I was just feeling so fed up and I decided to sit down and record in front of a camera how I was feeling. That was in March of 2017.
A lot of my feelings are there of just knowing that I could do better work if I got deeper into a certain industry, doing the same type of service over and over again, and just not knowing what the right direction was. One of my biggest frustrations is actually that there does seem to be a lot of advice out there now that says, “Find your target client, identify your niche, that’s the answer. But there wasn’t really anyone that said, “This is the process for how to do it, or “I’ve done it before and here’s what worked for me.
So I created the video and I just said, “I wonder if anybody else feels this way. I wonder if I document this process, if that will help anyone else that shares this kind of disappointment and frustration. And, yes, I did. Actually, I’ve made about 30 videos now and toward the beginning, you can see all the things I was trying to figure out my niche, because I didn’t start recording having figured it all out.
It’s actually a documentation of me going, “I don’t know what to do. Here’s a book I read and my review of it. Here’s an analysis exercise I tried. I think it’s probably 15 videos of me going, “I don’t know what I’m doing, but here’s something else. I can’t believe anyone even watched them. But it’s more interesting now that I do have a direction. Because, yes, I tried so hard to have a focused effort and sit down in a weekend and make the right choice, and it just never happened.
Brian Clark: It’s interesting, because your video and the follow-ups did resonate with people. But it’s interesting, because when we think about content marketing, creating video to attract clients, that’s not what these were really. These were more like your fellow counterparts in the industry. Many people like the type of people who are listening to this show right now. So you’re not marketing to your end-user, but you are providing this kind of group therapy session for people who all have the same problem.
Sara Dunn: Yes. It’s definitely not something that I’m putting time into in order to attract clients. It was really just more an outreach to my peers to say, “Does anybody else feel like this? Because this is very frustrating to me. So does anyone else identify? And the response has been so amazing. So many people absolutely do feel that way in the WordPress world, the web services world — that they want to specialize and just don’t know how.
One of my big goals has been this is definitely a side effort. I refuse to put too much time into it. All of my videos are one-take. I put the camera on the table, run around the table, talk at it for maybe two to five minutes and then run around the table and turn it off.
I’m trying to just kind of reach out to people, document what’s going on. Hopefully, give them some hope and do it in maybe one to three hours a week max.
What Did You Learn through This Process? How Did You Implement It? How Did You Know It Was the Right Direction?
Brian Clark: Okay, so I definitely want to link specifically to the first video, because that’s the one I love. I don’t know. It’s the one people talk about, because it’s just really very honest and no pretense whatsoever. “Is anyone else having this problem? Hell yes, everyone’s having this problem, right? I mean, that’s basically how a lot of people felt and I think that’s why it resonated.
But you have gone through the process and I think it would be interesting to watch the progression through the videos. But what we’re trying to do with this episode of Unemployable is get Sara to distill it down for us, and kind of encapsulate: what did you learn, how did you implement it, and how did you know it was the right decision?
Sara Dunn: I love this question, because that is really what I hoped to figure out through doing this process really mindfully. I said, “You know what? I’m going to figure out what the process is to specialize and to find the right niche. And I’m going to create some sort of 10-step process and hopefully it helps other people too. Unfortunately, that never happened.
I tried to do everything that involved analytics and data and strategy and looking through past clients. And I’m someone that’s very analytical by nature. I love thinking about things and making decisions based on data. But unfortunately, that really wasn’t the answer.
The real moment where it happened for me was the end of last year. I was at a conference for women entrepreneurs and I ran into a woman named Alison, who is a wedding planner in Chicago. Once I told her that I did web design and search engine optimization, she said, “Oh my gosh, will you look at my website? I had it redesigned in April and my search rankings have absolutely tanked. And I said, “Sure, I’d love to.
I probably spent an hour or two looking at her site. What I realized was that her web developer knew nothing about SEO, and she had fallen from page one for her most important keyword to page seven. I had so much fun figuring that out for her and working with her as a person that the light bulb totally went off for me. And I said, “This is the kind of person that I want to work with. This is the kind of work I want to do and this is a big problem that needs to be fixed within this industry.
So, as much as I tried to analyze everything about my decision, it was totally made with a gut reaction and just totally based on chance. I wish I had a great process for the Unemployable listeners to follow. But that is my story and that’s the story that I’ve shared honestly through this video journey in the last about three months.
Brian Clark: Yeah, but I still think that’s the key, because you made it a priority, you made it the subject of your focus, you were intentional about it. And then the answer arrived. It’s never as clean as these Medium articles that promise you the answer in 10 steps. I mean, come on. If that were the case, we’d all have it all figured out.
I know my own process is messy and that’s why sometimes I refuse to even really talk about it. Seth Godin told me the same thing. I’m like, “Seth, tell us your writing process. He’s like, “No, because you’ll think I’m insane. And I’m like, “I get that. I understand exactly what you’re saying. Okay, next question.
I love that. Okay, so I’ve seen that you have been really focused on SEO in the wedding industry and that was your thing. I mean, I guessed that, but I couldn’t wait to talk to you about it, because there’s been a gap between when we first met and the interview was scheduled.
It’s funny that you bring this up because in the macro level, that problem, web designers with bad code, was why I got into the WordPress market in 2008, first with Thesis and then Genesis, because that solves that problem. If you design child themes for Genesis, as you do, that’s not going to be a problem. And then of course, you can go in and do the fine tweaks with content and all that kind of stuff. It’s a good foundation.
But we knew that was a problem and that’s the whole reason why Genesis and StudioPress really exist. So, it’s a big problem. You have just taken that problem and focused like a laser on a certain type of website. And I can promise you, you’re never going to run out of business in that industry.
Sara Dunn: Yes, and you know what’s so interesting is that now that I’ve actually figured out what industry and what type of client, I’ve actually realized how much business is out there. It doesn’t feel as scarce as it did when I was a generalist.
You would think with the entire world of possible clients, being a generalist would bring you lots of opportunities. But it was like I was barely being noticed and work had to come to me. I didn’t know where to go to seek it, because I wasn’t clear on who I was trying to find.
It’s been fun to say, “Okay, I’m going to focus on the wedding industry. Where do they hang out, what do they like to listen to? Who are their thought leaders and how can I become more ingrained in what they are learning about right now? And that has been so fun for me to finally figure out what I can write a blog post about that’s actually interesting and helpful that I think will actually be read. So, it’s been really, really good.
Brian Clark: Yeah. Now I remember when we were speaking in Nashville when we first met, you said something like, “I build WordPress websites in Genesis, but my clients don’t know that it’s Genesis. They don’t care. And then you looked at me and you’re like, “Sorry. And I’m like, “No, no, that’s exactly the idea.
See, what your clients care about is that you understand the industry, you understand the struggles that they deal with. I mean, talk about an emotionally fraught transactional element. At least you’re dealing with the providers and not the brides. I don’t know if you’re married or not. It’s apparently very, very trying and stressful and it makes sense.
But you’re speaking the language of your audience and that’s what matters. They don’t care about the technology. They don’t care about WordPress, frankly. They’ve probably heard WordPress is a good way to go, but that’s about as far as it goes. They just want you to provide a solution and to do it in a way that’s relatable.
Sara Dunn: Yes, and they want me to know what their problems are and how to fix them. I’m in such a better place to do that knowing exactly who the client is.
Brian Clark: Yeah, I think that’s right. The process was messy, but it’s really about deciding that it needs to be done and being intentional and focusing and thinking about it. And then usually the answer shows up.
What Are the Benefits of Specialization?
Brian Clark: Let’s talk about some of the benefits. We’ve touched on them, but some of the benefits to you as a business owner, as an agency owner, when it comes from shifting from a generalist mindset to a specialized mindset.
First of all, you found, and I learned this early on — thank you to the universe or whomever, that this came to me early. But I understood that being laser-focused means I get all this type of people instead of very few of everyone. Yet it’s counterintuitive to people to think that. You’ve already learned, “I actually get more business by talking to fewer people.
Sara Dunn: Yes, and I’ve also heard the hesitation, “Well, I really like working on a variety of projects, and I get that too. But it’s also nice to be able to take on fun projects that maybe are outside of the niche as you have time, as long as you aren’t too busy with the clients within your niche. So, that’s always kind of an interesting thing that people are also worried about.
Brian Clark: No, I hear that all the time. But that is exactly correct — when your plate is kind of full with your primary type of client, but you have a little room and something really, let’s say, intellectually stimulating or it’s a challenge or it’s just a neat project, that’s up to you.
You never have to say no to things outside of your specialization, but your marketing messages are laser-focused or at least, the channel, let’s say, your primary website channel that you present to the world is very laser-focused. You get that business over and over and over again, but you’re going to meet people randomly and they’re going to say, “Hey, can you help me with my website? Because that even happens to me and my answer is, “No, I cannot. But I know lots of people who can help you.
Sara Dunn: Yes. One of the things that I’ve done in the execution of shifting toward my niche is actually to create an entirely separate laser-focused site that is focused on the wedding industry. It’s on a new domain and all of the messaging is focused to that audience. But I also left up my generalist agency site.
For me, and I think for a lot of others, that is a way that feels a lot less risky. So, “Hey, if this doesn’t work out, I still have this old business to fall back on that actually did pay me a good salary and keep me in business. So I’m not necessarily saying goodbye to that on day one, but I am able to market very carefully over on a separate website where the messaging is a lot more clear to a certain niche.
That is one way that people who might be a little bit scared to move in a focused direction might be able to mitigate the risk.
Brian Clark: It’s true. The best position to be in I think is in the position to say no to anything that comes in – “No. Instead of when we all start out, it’s, “Yes, yes. Oh God, this is awful, but, yes. Right?
Sara Dunn: “Yes, I’ll figure that out. I don’t know how to do it now, but let me figure it out.
Brian Clark: “I don’t know how to do it and I don’t even like you as a person, but I need your money. That is the worst position to be in.
Again, my advice is: specialization allows you to fill the pipeline to the point where you say yes/ to what you want to and no to what you don’t. Sometimes, the yeses are the off-message projects. Okay, who cares? If it’s interesting and the fee is right, then why not? It’s just, that’s the position you need to be in. And I think people get lost in the, “But I want to do all sorts of things, and not realize that you get there when you can say no.
Sara Dunn: That’s a great point. I think that’s totally true.
How Is the SEO for Your Own Site?
Brian Clark: Okay, so I’ve seen the new website and it’s awesome and you’re going to keep up the general site. Do you know there’s another Sara Dunn who is a designer and another Sara Dunn who’s an actress or something? You probably know all the Sara Dunns.
I was googling you and you do quite well for a name that’s so common, but hey, try being called Brian Clark. I had to fight for that number one ranking in Google.
Sara Dunn: Well, it’s funny. I haven’t worked too much on my own SEO for my name, because I actually kind of for a while wanted to keep my whole specializing blog and my YouTube channel on the down low. I didn’t necessarily want any potential clients locally to run into that and go, “Oh well, maybe Sara doesn’t want our business or maybe Sara isn’t doing this anymore.
Brian Clark: Isn’t that funny, because you’re here now preaching specialization and yet you had the same fears that everyone else has. I think that’s important, because sometimes people say, “Well, that’s fine for you. You’re a different person. You obviously have some quality that I don’t. No, we’re all afraid, but you proceed.
Sara Dunn: Yeah, that’s what the whole video series has been about. Just trying to be so honest about how hard this is. Because I felt like all of the advice made it sound so easy and everyone just kind of brushed it off like, “Well shoot, just choose a specialty and just talk to that person. It’s so easy. It’s not that hard. And I’m like, “Yes, it is hard. I’ve been thinking about this for a year and I still haven’t figured it out.
I wanted to be very honest about that, and it continues even into the more recent videos. I’ll be publishing one, I think, next week. That’s about how I have kept revenue coming in while shifting my marketing focus.
Just because you build a niche microsite and even when it starts ranking for some of your top keyword terms, that doesn’t mean that inquiries just start flooding in out of nowhere. It is work to get into an industry and get into a new market where you have zero brand awareness.
In all honesty, again, I actually hadn’t worked in this industry with a client until I met my new friend Alison. So, I chose a niche without some sort of huge resume of industry experience. I’m totally new to this market, but I also know that there is a very specific hole that I’m filling. But it’s going to take some time before my website starts just bringing me inquiries.
It’s a process and it comes with a ton of fears that I think sometimes aren’t given enough weight and kind of brushed aside as if they’re no big deal.
Brian Clark: Simple, but not easy. I should have that tattooed to my forehead and just point at it, because I say it all the time, and that’s the honesty. Because a lot of what we need to do is simple, but it’s almost never easy. I think, again, going back to the intentionality of, “What do I really want to do here? And opening yourself up almost to that serendipitous meeting with your new friend.
I mean, some people say, “Well that’s just luck. It had nothing to do with anything. If you weren’t open to it, that might’ve just been another conversation at a conference.
Sara Dunn: Absolutely. And if I wasn’t looking for that specific kind of fire…I was having such a personal goal to say, “What kind of work really lights me up? And I had that feeling as soon as I started digging into Alison’s website and figuring out what the problem was. I said, “I want to do this all the time. I want to fix this problem for more people like this. I was so open and looking for that type of feeling and that type of excitement, that that is one of the reasons that it struck me as the answer.
Sometimes I think that being intentional about wanting to make a choice doesn’t mean that you have to sit down with every worksheet you can find or read every blog post that you can google. It just means that you need to be open to finding the answer and kind of take that at your own pace.
I think at the beginning of trying to figure this out, I pushed myself too hard, and I said, “I’m going to figure this out. I’m going to give myself a four-week plan of how I’m going to figure this out. At the end of four weeks, I better have an answer. And it turned out I didn’t, and it just continued to frustrate me.
Brian Clark: But you didn’t give up.
Sara Dunn: No, exactly.
Where Can We Find You?
Brian Clark: That’s pretty much key. That’s awesome. Okay, I’m going to put all of these links in the show notes, but just for those listening, let’s tell everyone where they can find your general site, your new wedding site, and also, specifically the video series.
Sara Dunn: Absolutely. The best place to keep up with me is probably on Twitter. Sara11d is my handle there. If you’re interesting…
Brian Clark: “If you’re only interesting people. Yeah, we’re going to leave that in. That’s awesome.
Sara Dunn: If you are interested in reading more about this journey of specializing and seeing all of the videos, I would direct you to Sara_dunn.com. And if you wanted to check out what I’m doing with the niche microsite, that’s at Saradoesseo.com.
Brian Clark: So, you have 11 in all your handles. What is the significance of that, if I may ask?
Sara Dunn: Sure. It’s actually my lucky number. So, my birthday is November 11th, 11-11. When I was trying to name my business, I was just looking for a short name. My agency’s name is 11Web, and has gone from there.
Brian Clark: I like that. Everything has significance with you. That’s good.
Sara Dunn: I try to be very thoughtful.
Brian Clark: Yes, and intentional. All right, Sara, thank you so much for the time. I’ve really enjoyed this and I think this is very useful. People are looking for the numbered list of the process, but life doesn’t always work that way. You’ve got to stick with it, people.
Remember that and keep going.
Sara Dunn: Thanks, Brian.