Your brand isn’t what you say it is … it’s what your customers and clients say it is. That doesn’t mean you can’t influence the space you occupy in the minds of your intended audience, as long as you understand the role you’re playing.
Beyond your logo, and your site design, and your copy, your brand is how the right people perceive the value and assistance you provide for the journey they’re going on. In short, branding is the culmination of everything you say and do as perceived by them.
Today, Kathleen Shannon of Braid Creative & Consulting joins me to geek out about the art of branding. Braid specializes in branding & business visioning for creative entrepreneurs, so tune in for some actionable advice on building the right brand for you.
In this episode Kathleen Shannon and I discuss:
- The origin of the term branding (and why your logo isn’t your brand)
- Why you only have to be a step ahead of your audience
- Why positioning is a promise that you have to then live
- How empathy helps you position your brand correctly
- Finding the authentic intersection between you and your audience
The Show Notes
The Art of Branding
Voiceover: Welcome to Unemployable, the show for people who can get a job, they’re just not inclined to take one — and that’s putting it gently. If you’re a freelancer or solopreneur, Unemployable is the place to get actionable advice for growing your business, improving your processes, and enjoying greater freedom day to day. To get the full experience, register at no charge at Unemployable.com. You’ll get access to upcoming webinars and more. That’s Unemployable.com.
Brian Clark: Hey, Everyone, welcome to another episode of Unemployable. I am your host, Brian Clark, and today we’re going to talk about branding. Despite its origins, branding is not just for cattle.
I was introduced to today’s guests by a friend and someone I trust. One of the first things she said to me was, “You know, a logo is not your brand. And I said, “Oh, I’m going to get along with her just fine. Maybe you don’t have these misconceptions out there, but let’s talk about that whole branding thing.
A brand in the cattle sense is the mark that was put on the cow to identify which ranch that cow came from. Now, this was important so that other ranchers would know that’s not their stock, and depending on the reputation of the rancher, how much they were going to go out of their way to return that cow.
It was also an indication to poachers that “We are going to come after you and do bad things to you or call law enforcement or whatever the case may be. The reputation for enforcement. Then, finally, when those cattle were taken to market, that brand was a symbol or the reputation of the cattle rancher for quality.
Now, keep in mind, the brand on the cow did not create the cattle ranch or the reputation of the cattle ranch. That was a completely different thing. The brand is just a symbol and so is your logo.
So, Kathleen and I are going to geek out heavily, because I only have one question for her, and I am sure that it’s going to spark an entire episode worth of conversation. We shall see. She may just respond and I’m like, “Mic drop. That’s it.
What Is Your Background?
Brian Clark: Kathleen, first, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself? How did you get here? How did Braid Creative & Consulting come to be?
Kathleen Shannon: Wow. So, let’s see, I’m trying to decide where to start.
I went to school for graphic design, or college rather, and I got my degree. And right out of that, I started working at an advertising agency and worked my way up to a senior art director. After about five years, I could feel the landscape of advertising was shifting. It was around this time that I was actually learning the difference between things like advertising and marketing and branding and realized that I really enjoyed the branding side of things.
I had a blog, just a personal blog. I was remodeling my house with my husband and I wanted to document that process, so I was blogging a lot. And when I quit my job in advertising, I started blogging about the adventure of freelancing. I don’t come from a family of entrepreneurs, so it was a pretty big deal to quit my day job.
As I was sharing the experience of what it was like to work for myself and some tips and tricks along the way that I was learning as I went, I started attracting a tribe of other creative entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs who wanted to work for themselves, and they started asking me questions. And I started writing articles on my own blog about freelancing. So, in a way, I kind of started to position myself as an expert in working for yourself, even though I was a total newbie.
About a year after freelancing, my sister was a creative director VP at an advertising agency, and she was starting to think about leaving her job after 13 years. And I was kind of just like, “Jump on in, the water’s nice. It is nice working for yourself.
We knew that we wanted to create a company with each other. I still just kind of wanted to have the freedom of being a freelancer, but she really wanted to have a method or a process and a niche that would make us feel like experts. I didn’t value that as much as she did at the time. But now, five years later, I definitely see the value in that.
We started Braid Creative & Consulting together. It’s funny, because in our agency days, both of us were working with a lot of small banks and credit unions, so totally not sexy. We thought that we might just continue doing that. But I told her, I said, “Listen, I really feel strongly about helping other creatives. It’s who I’m talking to already on my blog. Let’s figure out a way to package up something to sell to them.
We started what we call the Brand Starter Kit at the time, and now it’s really our Braid Method. And we never worked with one credit union. We were only working with creative entrepreneurs from the beginning. And it has really just taken off.
In January, I started a podcast with my friend and web guru – that’s what I call her, because she does all my web stuff and digital eSale stuff. She pitched me in January or maybe in November, December about doing a podcast together. And I said, yeah. So, we really jumped in without knowing what we were doing at all. The podcast is called Being Boss and it’s really kind of in a lot of ways, replaced my blog whenever it comes to sharing content and really just being candid and vulnerable. It’s an easy platform to do that.
It’s really fun just exploring creative conversations, as you know, from your own show with other creatives. I feel really lucky to get to do what I do every day. So, that’s my general story. I’m sure I’m glazing over bits and pieces of it, but in a nutshell.
Be a Guide to Your Audience
Brian Clark: That’s a good story. So, five years later — one thing that stuck out to me in your story was you kind of fearlessly, you were recently out on your own. You had experience obviously in advertising, marketing and branding. And yet, you grew a tribe of your own and you were, in a certain sense, as far as being out on your own, only two steps ahead of your own audience, but you were still sharing with them. And I tell people, “That’s all you have to do.
Kathleen Shannon: That’s exactly right. It is all you have to do.
I think that a lot of our clients and a lot of the listeners to my podcast, they really shy away from embracing their own expertise. “Expert is the label only designated for people who are two steps ahead of them. And so, it can be an uncomfortable label to wear. If you don’t like the word “expert, I get it. And it can be annoying if everyone and their dog is calling themselves an expert.
But really just thinking of yourself as a guide and then sharing your gifts of knowledge openly will help you position yourself as a leader in your industry. And, I mean, that’s all it is.
Brian Clark: Yeah, it’s true. And we can talk about that subject alone for a long time, but don’t call yourself an expert. I love the guide, the mentor, the, “I learned this yesterday. I’m sharing it with you today.
Kathleen Shannon: Yeah, even call yourself a peer and say, “I’m right there with you-
Brian Clark: “Here’s what I figured out, because I’ve made every stupid mistake in the world is a very attractive positioning statement. I know tons of people who have done it, and yet, you’ll always hear that same thing what you just shared, which is, “Oh, that’s not me. Yeah, it is you, actually.
Kathleen Shannon: Yup. I think it’s a lot like, “Do you feel like a grown up? Because I think it’s a lot like whenever you’re a kid and you’re like, “Whenever I’m a grown up… But then you get into your 30s and you’re like, “Oh yeah, that grownup thing, has that happened yet?
Brian Clark: I’m pushing 48 and I’m still waiting for the grownup — actually, I stopped waiting a long time ago, because you fundamentally feel the same. Except I would say I’m a lot wiser than when I was an actual 20-something.
Kathleen Shannon: Hopefully, right?
Brian Clark: Yeah.
Kathleen Shannon: I felt like an adult the first time I ever actually bought a font. I had been married, I had bought a house, but it was not using stolen fonts for the first time.
Brian Clark: That is the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Yes, the font rite of passage, when you purchased your first one.
Kathleen Shannon: Or buying the full Adobe Suite and it’s not the student version. That’s when I felt like a grownup.
Brian Clark: You are definitely a designer at heart.
How to Create Your Brand
Brian Clark: Here is what I would like to pose to you and we’ve touched on it a bit. And we actually touched on it a bit before we went on the air, so I feel like I need to set the stage here a little bit.
I want to talk about positioning, which is a concept you’ve already mentioned in explaining your own story and it’s so vital. For a decade now, I’ve been really working to try to help people position effectively. And there are a lot of people out there listening right now who may have scoffed at the whole “Your logo is your brand thing. And yet, they equate positioning with branding. And it’s vital in my mind (and I want to hear what you have to say) to creating your brand, but it’s not the whole thing.
So, just to set the stage, positioning is effectively the story, if you will, that you’re trying to create so that you own a little distinct spot in the mind of the right type of person for your business. You don’t care about the wrong type of people — that’s a totally different mistake. Strong positioning will resonate with the right type of people and the rest of the world will just ignore you. They may even hate you and it doesn’t even matter.
A lot of you have heard of the USP (Unique Selling Proposition), which is archaic in the sense that almost any product or service can be replicated unless it’s patented. So, it’s very hard to differentiate at that level. As we go on and on, a lot of it comes down to the way you talk to people as a person. And now with the rise of social media, the one thing no one can copy is you. So, that’s a way to position yourself around your authentic personality.
But there are a ton of ways to do it. At best, you’re basically creating instant understanding to the right type of people, or at minimum, I should say. Then, at best, you’re creating an essence of identification. Like, “That’s my type of person right there. That’s my type of company. I’m an Apple person, I’m a Google person, that kind of thing.
That’s a very important part and that’s where your logo comes from. That’s where your name comes from — product name, service name, all of that kind of stuff. But it’s still just a promise of something.
Then you have to go out and live that promise or that story. That’s delivering on your brand promise, if you will. And even that, I would argue, is not the end of it, because ultimately, your brand is what other people think of you no matter how hard you try to control or influence it or live it. Ultimately, it resides in other people’s minds. They’re telling themselves a story about you.
Okay, I’m going to shut up now.
Kathleen Shannon: For as long as I’ve been doing this, you really articulated that well — that your brand is what other people think of you. Because I always think of being a creative entrepreneur and having a lot of control over my own brand, and a personal brand. And you’re touching on all of these points that I’m just nodding my head. Like I’m almost breaking my neck. I’m like, “Yes, all of that.
I guess I just leave out the part about “Your brand is what other people think of you. Because I focus on “Let’s attract the people that we want and forget the rest. So, who cares if other people don’t like you? But it really is a relationship and it kind of goes back — did your mom in middle school ever tell you to just be yourself and to let people like you for who you are?
Brian Clark: And you’re like, “Yeah, Mom, have you been to middle school?
Kathleen Shannon: Right, I’m like, “Okay, thanks, Mom. But now I’m like, “Yes, that was solid advice.
I think that even now as you’re growing a business, your brand isn’t just your logo, but it is about how you talk about yourself. And it is just having probably the confidence to be yourself and really say what you mean.
I see a lot of creative entrepreneurs hiding behind trends or hiding behind jargon, or hiding behind really long explanations or sales pages over what they do. Or they’re hiding behind really vague terms like, “I just want to be empowering or inspiring or disruptive, whatever it is. I’m like, “What does that actually mean? Can you get specific about what you do and who you do it for?
I think that your brand encompasses all of those things. And just like you said, it’s delivering on that promise. I think the easiest promise to deliver on is just who you are.
That’s why I love personal branding so much, because if you can trust yourself, you don’t have to really think too hard about positioning or expertise, you just have to share. Once you start sharing your gifts of knowledge, that’s then what positions you as the expert.
For example, maybe it’s not an example, I feel like I’m running off on tangents already, not very cohesive.
Brian Clark: No, you’re good.
Kathleen Shannon: You’re very concise, Brian.
Brian Clark: Well, maybe this will help get to a more concise point than even before. The reason why I point out that ultimately you can’t control others’ perception of you is because, well, that’s true. But you can influence it obviously, and that’s a big part of being your best self. Because other people get bogged down and, well, if I’m just going to be myself, they become completely contextually inappropriate, which we see as kind of rampant.
The point being that we as individuals, we’re the hero of our own life story. In our heads, we’re the protagonist and the role you, as the creative entrepreneur, the freelancer, the professional services provider, necessarily has to be that of guide or mentor.
On one hand, you point out a common problem, which is people are reluctant to be the expert, to put themselves in that role. But it’s really just a very helpful guide or mentor.
And then, the flip side of it is though, once either people get some confidence, I think, or they’re misguided about what marketing and positioning and branding is, they position themselves as the hero and that all of a sudden, the clients are supposed to be worshiping at your feet. And that is mistake number one.
Kathleen Shannon: Right, I’m starting to really see a connection between branding and sales pages. And I think that it really turns a lot of people off. Whenever they hear branding, they start to feel like, “Oh, that’s icky sales stuff and it’s just not true.
One of the things that really worked for me and that I encourage a lot of people, sometimes even potential clients who come to me, they want to go through a branding process before they have something to brand.
So, oftentimes I’ll tell people, “Listen, just go out and do the thing. Just do whatever it is, practice for a year. Try on lots of different kinds of customers. Try on a few different offerings and really see what starts to stick. Because it’s so much easier to deliver on a promise that you know you like rather than delivering on something that you think you might like.
Brian Clark: I love that advice. That is so dead-on, because again, I guess that’s really what I was trying to get at. That a brand is created by doing, by engaging with people, by delivering.
Kathleen Shannon: Oh, 100%.
Positioning and Expertise
Brian Clark: And you can do that without thinking about positioning at all.
Kathleen Shannon: Totally, don’t even think about it. Just do what you’re doing and then I think it’s helpful… Here’s what it is, whenever it comes to positioning and expertise.
Positioning and expertise happen whenever you’re able to recognize patterns. And you can’t recognize patterns in yourself or in your customer or in whatever it is that you’re doing until you’re actually doing it.
Brian Clark: That is so important, because once you have something to work with… And this is a big theme with us in our company where we have general goals, but we know once we start doing it, everything is going to go in a different direction. Maybe small, maybe big, but you have to be open to that. And I think through the process, whether you’re a freelancer or you’ve got a small startup, you’ve got to get out there and get real indications of what works and what resonates and what doesn’t.
Then at that time, if you become a student of branding and positioning, you can go, “Okay, now we’ve got something here. Let’s start crafting the story, as opposed to just making up a story as we go along.
Kathleen Shannon: And you’ll know that it’s really resonating. Back to what you said about your brand is how other people engage with you, a lot of times, whenever I write an article now, I probably get a handful of responses that are just people saying, “Wow, you wrote that just for me. You were inside my head.
I think that’s part of what branding is and even being an expert, it’s kind of feeling like a psychic for your client. Like they could just call you up a potential client or whatever it is. Maybe it’s even just a potential offering that you’re making. And you have people feeling like you’re a total psychic. You’ve read their mind. And really it’s just that you’ve recognized the patterns, and you’ve recognized either the desires or the pain points, and you’re able to respond to them in a really genuine way.
That’s the part that I want to latch onto — that it’s still meaningful and genuine. That you’re not selling snake oil, but that you’re delivering something that someone else needs. Again, it could be someone that’s very similar to you and you’re just two steps ahead of them. That’s what I found to be the most creatively fulfilling for myself and for a lot of my clients, even.
Be an Authentic Member of Your Tribe
Brian Clark: And that’s empathy. There is nothing more genuine than true empathy, as opposed to the more insincere… I think that’s what people are afraid of. That somehow branding and/or marketing and/or sales is an exercise in insincerity, when in fact, it’s the exact opposite. It’s, “Hey, I know how you feel and I’ve dealt with this before, and here’s what you do. And that’s why people go, “You’re in my head. Well, because I’m very much like you, which I think is very important.
I always say if you want to lead a tribe, you should first be a member of it and it helps if that’s an authentic membership. I like to go learn about new markets and I’m fascinated by that. But I ultimately gravitate towards serving people that are similar to me, because I’m better at it that way.
Kathleen Shannon: Yeah, me too. Yes, 100%. I agree. But I think that that has tripped up some of my creative peers and friends who are like, “But I like being a problem solver, and I like helping people who are different from me. And I get that, maybe I can’t entirely empathize, because I do like hanging out with like-minded creatives, I suppose.
But it comes down to: when do I do my best work? And so maybe sometimes branding isn’t about necessarily how you position yourself. Maybe it’s really just about asking really good questions, and then answering them as honestly as possible.
Brian Clark: Yeah, I think that’s right. Branding is not your logo. Branding is not necessarily just the story you’re telling, unless that story connects with the type of people that you’re trying to reach at the strongest level that you can make it.
And that’s why you can keep revisiting your brand and strengthening that positioning from, I guess, a standpoint of knowledge and wisdom as opposed to, “I’m just creating this thing and I really have no idea what’s going on inside the head of the people.
If you’re going to go inside someone’s head, you better have a really good idea of what’s going on in there.
Again, you can do this. There’s a procedure called “empathy mapping, which is really helpful at trying to figure out (I want to say “target market or “audience or whatever the case may be) what they’re thinking, feeling and seeing in relationship, contextually to the problem or a desire that you’re satisfying.
From a content standpoint, which of course we’re big on, that’s solving the initial problems with education, hopefully in a humorous, engaging, entertaining way before you say, “Okay, now you’re ready to solve the bigger problem with our product or service.
Kathleen Shannon: Right. We’re starting to talk about our customer a little bit, which absolutely is a part of the brand. But I think before you even get there, because I see a lot of creatives get really hung up in their own branding process whenever they start thinking too much about what other people will want.
I think that’s where the personal branding aspect and just the “Be yourself part comes in. It’s about trying on what you want to do first and then seeing how that resonates. Don’t anticipate problems before they’re even a problem.
One of my favorite brands out there when it comes to personal branding is Wayne White. Have you seen his documentary Beauty is Embarrassing?
Brian Clark: No, I don’t think so. What’s that about?
Kathleen Shannon: It is incredible. And it’s just really inspiring. If you need a message of “Do what you love and let your freak flag fly and the money will follow, he’s a good person to watch for that.
Brian Clark: As long as there are other freaks with credit cards.
Kathleen Shannon: Right. And there are.
Brian Clark: But it’s important. Yeah, it’s true, and I’m being facetious. But the only time I see that not work is when you attract the audience that shows up and it turns out they’re not interested in the way you were trying to make money. And that can be very painful, because building an audience is hard enough.
But there’s just got to be a connection. That’s why I’m saying be a member of your own tribe. Because if you’re buying things related to membership in that community, then so are they. And, therefore, that’s a big hint at the type of products and services that you may want to develop but at a more basic level.
Client as Collaborator
Brian Clark: So, if you were doing design work for someone, their problem or desire, depending on which way you flip it, is that they need graphic design work done. But there’s a whole universe of related anxiety and dreams. You know what I’m saying? Like, when someone gets a logo, what’s the bigger context there?
There’s a whole lot of dreams and aspirations wrapped up there and your ability to empathize with that is probably going to make that go either great or poorly.
Kathleen Shannon: That’s exactly right because a brand is, a part of it is the logo. And so, what I see happen a lot, even when people are hiring me or hiring my customers, my own clients, is your brand is really what inspires and attracts people to you in the first place. So, it might be a really bad ass logo, it might be your Instagram selfies. Whatever it is, there is an aspect of you that inspires and attracts people to you in the first place. A lot of that is kind of the outer layer of your brand, if you will.
But then there’s this aspect to your branding that helps reassure and helps deliver on the promise. I think that’s the kind of deeper stuff, which maybe isn’t even branding, once you get to the reassurance and delivering, because that’s what they get after they buy you.
Brian Clark: Well, it’s still the brand experience.
Kathleen Shannon: It is, yeah, it is. Because then, they go on and tell other people about it. And so, then they become brand advocates.
I think that your brand is how you inspire and attract others to you in the first place, but then it’s also how you reassure them. So, that’s kind of what you were describing. Someone might see on a website, you design this awesome logo for someone else and now it looks like they have a really successful online business. How do I know I’m going to get the same thing?
That’s the anxiety that can keep them from clicking “Buy. It can lead to buyer’s remorse or back backpedaling. And that’s where it’s really important to have a methodical and logical process that helps explain — explain is another good word to replace “sell with — simply what you do and how you got there.
Those are things as simple as case studies. I think that a lot of, and I’m speaking to designers, but this might speak to a lot of different kinds of creatives from writers to photographers. I think that especially when I was younger, I liked for people to think that what I did was magic. But now, I know that I can reassure a potential client by giving them a peek behind the curtain of my creative process.
So, that’s literally things like listening to them. What are they actually saying? Rather than just letting my design ego get in the way. And then providing things like mood boards and letting them talk about what they don’t like. I think that sometimes we’re so afraid of failure that we’re afraid to hear what you might not like about me or my skills, which can feel personal. That’s why I say, “What you don’t like about me.
But really I think that’s actually reassuring for the client. It’s what makes them feel like a collaborator in the process and in the brand, and it’s what’s going to get enthusiastic approval on the final product. Because you’ve really let them in on the brand story from the get-go, from sharing your gifts of knowledge on a blog or a podcast where they can interact with you as a fellow member of your tribe to then hiring you as a guide to help them get there too.
The Role of Integrity
Brian Clark: Yeah, I think that was exceptionally well put. The only thing I would add is literally, integrity, which means integration across from the first interaction or awareness all the way through to after the process. Just maintaining what you stand for. Isn’t that where people go wrong? It’s the deviation from the promised experience at this jarring moment, and that’s where things go off the rails.
But you have to be thinking in that integrated sense. I think that goes back to your point about “Be who you are. And if are a person of integrity or consistency, then that just happens.
Kathleen Shannon: Yeah, I think it’s really easy to have integrity whenever you can get very specific about what you want and what you do. So, that takes some courage to draw some boundaries. To say, “Oh, you’ll give me money for this thing, except I don’t do that thing. It can be very tempting if you have the skills. So, I think that’s part of integrity — just getting really specific.
Then, of course, literally delivering on the promise of deadlines and skill and attitude and making it a really good experience. I always tell even my creative peers and colleagues, “You don’t have to be all puppies and rainbows. You don’t have to become best friends with your client or potential client. Everything doesn’t have to always be awesome. I think being a likable expert is about setting firm boundaries and thriving within those lines.
So, letting your client know exactly what they can expect is a good way to set up your brand experience after they get past that kind of outer layer.
Brian Clark: Yeah, that’s the key word — expectations. And maybe over-deliver a little, but don’t under deliver.
Kathleen Shannon: Exactly.
More About the Branding ECourse
Brian Clark: Yeah, all right. Well, this has been fun.
I do want to ask you a little bit, I haven’t had a chance to check it out, but I noticed on the Braid site, there’s a branding eCourse that is probably a really good introduction. Do you think of this more as, “Take this and you don’t need us? Or “Take this so you can work better with us?
Kathleen Shannon: A little bit of both. So, I think that there are writers and designers out there who could go through the Branding eCourse and totally DIY it. A lot of times, designers and writers do hire us, because it’s a little bit hard to see the forest whenever you’re in your own trees. What is another good cliché? The cobbler’s kids have no shoes, that sort of thing.
But I think that it’s a great, much more affordable introduction. It’s probably, I would say, the textbook to the one-on-one work that we do in a lot of ways. Whenever people hire us for one-on-one, I always give them the branding eCourse just so that they have it for reference, because that’s where we’re explaining a lot of the reasons why we do what we do without having an eight-hour meeting.
But yeah, thanks for mentioning it. We previously had three separate eCourses on Dream Customer and Embracing Your Expertise, Personal Branding and really blending who you are with what you do. And then Shaping and Sharing Your Content, so that you can really attract that dream customer.
So, we had three of those and then we decided to combine it all and then add some more sections including stuff on positioning and expertise and a few scripts on how to talk about yourself, so that you sound self-employed versus unemployed. And ways that you can really create your own brand story.
The only component we don’t really have in there is that logo part. It’s funny whenever you’re first talking about…
Brian Clark: I don’t think you can teach someone how to make a logo.
Kathleen Shannon: I know. I was about to say, you know, Noun Project. I think that there’s a Google service now that makes it really easy to combine a Noun Project icon with a really beautiful font. And I’m not trying to discredit what designers do.
Brian Clark: No, but it’s a later step. It’s not the first step.
Kathleen Shannon: It really is. It’s a later step. And so, whenever you’re talking about the cows, I think that I just take it for granted probably because that’s what my skill is in and I’ve been doing it for so long.
I’m really interested more in the conversation that we had — that your brand is so much more than just a logo. And I think that you can be incredibly successful without that part of it. Or that you can do that part of it, but like you said, it’s the last part. It’s kind of the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.
Brian Clark: So, it looks like a great course. I would also commend you and get others to think about the fact that these online courses are a fantastic way of not claiming expertise, but demonstrating it. And you don’t have to give it away for free. We’ve talked about that in the past as a lead generation thing. But people charge for books, people charge for courses, there’s value there and they end up hiring you anyway. So, it’s really smart.
Kathleen Shannon: Absolutely. This goes into business model, but I really like to tier my offerings, so that even if someone can never afford me, they can follow along. They can sign up for a newsletter, they can read a blog, they can do things for free.
It just takes a little bit more work. I think the more you pay for something, the less work you have to do yourself. But thanks for mentioning it.
Brian Clark: Yeah, no problem at all. Well, thank you for being here. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. We may have to do it again sometime.
Kathleen Shannon: I would love to, yeah.
Brian Clark: We could probably geek out in seven other areas.
Kathleen Shannon: Oh my gosh, yeah, I would love to.
Brian Clark: All right, though, so that is a crash course and the way to think about your brand, personal or otherwise. I hope you got something out of it. I loved it. Kathleen, thanks again.
All right, Everyone, I want you to go out there and hopefully put some of this to work for yourself. Have a great week. And, of course, keep going.